Re: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped
Yes, the bank switching SF2 uses that Zeograd was referring to that was very commonly used to work around hardware memory limitations if the game publisher was willing to pay for additional memory and hardware in the cartridge / card. The Nintendo NES especially used various bank switching hardware and techniques for almost all games beyond the early first generation software.
In layman’s terms, a game console ships from the factory with a specific amount of internal memory. However, if developers want more memory to make the game better, they can put some additional memory onto the cartridge, and then make that memory available to the CPU. CPUs do have a limit to how much memory they can access (and they’re optimized for accessing the internal memory), so the cartridge would often also include a special circuit to “switch” the CPU memory addressing between a “bank" of internal memory and the external cartridge memory.
On the PC-Engine, besides Street Fighter 2, the three different CD-ROM system cards (CD-ROM2, Super CD-ROM2, Arcade CD-ROM) are each successively adding more memory on the card along with bank switching hardware to make that extra memory usable.
Daniel
From: Seavey <xxxxxx@optonline.net<mailto:xxxxxx@optonline.net>>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2014 at 6:55 AM
To: "xxxxxx@link.st<mailto:xxxxxx@link.st>" <xxxxxx@link.st<mailto:xxxxxx@link.st>>
Subject: RE: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped
It’s amazing what programmers can come up with when they have hardware experience (ie post-launch of a console). That’s pretty nuts.
So the HuCard limit is 8Mbits “at once” but more can be stored if it’s not all needed simultaneously?
Matt
From: Zeograd [mailto:xxxxxx@zeograd.com]
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 2:39 PM
To: Seavey; 'bt garner'
Cc: xxxxxx@link.st<mailto:xxxxxx@link.st>
Subject: Re: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped
Le 08/09/2014 16:41, Seavey a écrit :
Isn’t Street Fighter 2 bigger than 1 megabit? Is that HuCard limit for US-based systems or did SF2 do some crazy magic? Or do I simply not know about HuCard design enough? :)
SF2 has special hardware in the hucard. Iirc some banks are swappable when you write to specific I/O registers.
So you can only address indirectly 8 Mbits (64 kbits directly) at any time, but you can choose something like the top 4 Mbits out of the several included in the game, ending with a whooping 20 Mbits for the whole hucard.
I could have sworn SF2 was 20 Megabits on PCE?
Matt
From:xxxxxx@gmail.com<mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com> [mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com] On Behalf Of bt garner
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 10:10 AM
To: Seavey
Cc: xxxxxx@link.st<mailto:xxxxxx@link.st>
Subject: Re: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped
HNB has 8 separate overlays, the main game is really close to the 256K limit (so close in fact that at one point some code clean up had to be done to prevent it from going over). All combined, the overlays are just under the 8 megabit limit that your standard HuCard has. Now keep in mind that some of this is the non-SCD card warning, and some of this is overhead that would be present in every overlay, but not needed for a ROM image, There are also a few hidden things (I've said too much) that cou
ld be removed.
In exchange, you'd have to add chiptune music to replace the CD tunes.
So, yes, it could be done with HNB to create an under 1 megabit version of the game suitable for HuCard/ROM/whatever.
-bt
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Seavey <xxxxxx@optonline.net<mailto:xxxxxx@optonline.net>> wrote:
I would imagine something like that would have a “minimum order” too, just like the SCD runs do. I wonder what that minimum would be, how much prototypes would cost for testing, etc etc. As cool as it would be, what I’ve come to realize in talking with some folks recently is that there are too few people who “support developers” and buy games at full price or games they like the concept of but have no realistic time/chance of actually playing. Most folks wait for a sale at Walmart or simply pass up anything but Madden and Call of Duty. Given the cost of HuCard type production, which I’m guessing is high, and taking into account the size of the audience – then factor in how many people would actually buy a TG16 game for $60+ (especially if they already bought the SCD version) and you have a losing scenario financially.
I think it would be super-cool to see it done, but I don’t know that even on this list we could gather enough support to make it practical, and those on this list are the most hard-core fans :)
What about those HuCards that allow you to put a bunch of ROMs on one card? I picked mine up when a lister years ago made a bulk order. As I don’t have many ROMs I don’t use it much but something like that would let you play a game on an Express if it were in HuCard size/format without the expense of producing them as an official HuCard title.
@BT – music aside, could the game code fit into a HuCard-sized ROM that would work in a setup like this? I don’t know how you’d make money on that yet but I’m just curious if it is technically possible?
Matt (aka Landis)
From:xxxxxx@gmail.com<mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com> [mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com<mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com>] On Behalf Of bt garner
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 6:49 PM
To: xxxxxx@link.st<mailto:xxxxxx@link.st>
Subject: Fwd: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped
Well, I think it boils down to simple economics. Look at the 2 most recent PCE releases. Atlantean was recently released on a custom built HuCard format, price is $60. HNB on SCD sells for half that. Now think about hardware, how many TG-16s and Duos are out there that are still functioning (and hooked up)? Those are the only machines that can play a HuCard game. Whereas an SCD can be played in any emulator or Duo (yeah, I know, no TG-16s for that). Then you have the piracy issue. If you released a PCE game on a format that could easily be uploaded, it will be uploaded (I have no doubt that HNB will be uploaded at some point too).
I am not saying it can't happen, but it just seems very unlikely that anyone would invest the time needed for a PCE release, then do what they can to not be able to recover the costs (and by costs I mean the costs of the product, that is not including the development costs).
-bt
On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Steve <xxxxxx@craftsathome.net<mailto:xxxxxx@craftsathome.net>> wrote:
I understand the ease and utility of using CD as a distribution medium, and also the flexibility in background music that a CD affords to a game. However, in these days of micro/mini SD cards, would it be "worth it" to distribute games on some kind of pseudo-Hucards with an SD card baked in? I would love to play new games on my Express as well as my Duo.
Thanks.
--
Sent from my Intellivision keyboard component.
> On Sep 7, 2014, at 3:14 PM, bt garner <xxxxxx@mindrec.com<mailto:xxxxxx@mindrec.com>> wrote:
>
> Yo guys - the first batch of HNB CDs
[snip]
--_000_D03725E63DEF1DanielLadnerusuedu_
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<div>Yes, the bank switching SF2 uses that Zeograd was referring to that was very commonly used to work around hardware memory limitations if the game publisher was willing to pay for additional memory and hardware in the cartridge / card. The Nintendo NES
especially used various bank switching hardware and techniques for almost all games beyond the early first generation software.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In layman’s terms, a game console ships from the factory with a specific amount of internal memory. However, if developers want more memory to make the game better, they can put some additional memory onto the cartridge, and then make that memory available
to the CPU. CPUs do have a limit to how much memory they can access (and they’re optimized for accessing the internal memory), so the cartridge would often also include a special circuit to “switch” the CPU memory addressing between a “bank" of internal memory
and the external cartridge memory.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On the PC-Engine, besides Street Fighter 2, the three different CD-ROM system cards (CD-ROM2, Super CD-ROM2, Arcade CD-ROM) are each successively adding more memory on the card along with bank switching hardware to make that extra memory usable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Daniel</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Seavey <<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@optonline.net">xxxxxx@optonline.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, September 11, 2014 at 6:55 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>"<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@link.st">xxxxxx@link.st</a>" <<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@link.st">xxxxxx@link.st</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>RE: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It’s amazing what programmers can come up with when they have hardware experience (ie post-launch of a console). That’s pretty nuts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So the HuCard limit is 8Mbits “at once” but more can be stored if it’s not all needed simultaneously?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Matt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: windowtext;"> Zeograd [<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@zeograd.com">mailto:xxxxxx@zeograd.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 08, 2014 2:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Seavey; 'bt garner'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:xxxxxx@link.st">xxxxxx@link.st</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Le 08/09/2014 16:41, Seavey a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Isn’t Street Fighter 2 bigger than 1 megabit? Is that HuCard limit for US-based systems or did SF2 do some crazy magic? Or do I simply not know
about HuCard design enough? </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">SF2 has special hardware in the hucard. Iirc some banks are swappable when you write to specific I/O registers.<br>
So you can only address indirectly 8 Mbits (64 kbits directly) at any time, but you can choose something like the top 4 Mbits out of the several included in the game, ending with a whooping 20 Mbits for the whole hucard.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I could have sworn SF2 was 20 Megabits on PCE?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Matt</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com">xxxxxx@gmail.com</a> [<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com">mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>bt garner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 08, 2014 10:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Seavey<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:xxxxxx@link.st">xxxxxx@link.st</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">HNB has 8 separate overlays, the main game is really close to the 256K limit (so close in fact that at one point some code clean up had to be done to prevent it from going over). All combined, the overlays
are just under the 8 megabit limit that your standard HuCard has. Now keep in mind that some of this is the non-SCD card warning, and some of this is overhead that would be present in every overlay, but not needed for a ROM image, There are also a few hidden
things (I've said too much) that cou<o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">ld be removed.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">In exchange, you'd have to add chiptune music to replace the CD tunes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">So, yes, it could be done with HNB to create an under 1 megabit version of the game suitable for HuCard/ROM/whatever.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-bt<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Seavey <<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@optonline.net" target="_blank">xxxxxx@optonline.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I would imagine something like that would have a “minimum order” too, just like the SCD
runs do. I wonder what that minimum would be, how much prototypes would cost for testing, etc etc. As cool as it would be, what I’ve come to realize in talking with some folks recently is that there are too few people who “support developers” and buy games
at full price or games they like the concept of but have no realistic time/chance of actually playing. Most folks wait for a sale at Walmart or simply pass up anything but Madden and Call of Duty. Given the cost of HuCard type production, which I’m guessing
is high, and taking into account the size of the audience – then factor in how many people would actually buy a TG16 game for $60+ (especially if they already bought the SCD version) and you have a losing scenario financially.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think it would be super-cool to see it done, but I don’t know that even on this list
we could gather enough support to make it practical, and those on this list are the most hard-core fans
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What about those HuCards that allow you to put a bunch of ROMs on one card? I picked mine
up when a lister years ago made a bulk order. As I don’t have many ROMs I don’t use it much but something like that would let you play a game on an Express if it were in HuCard size/format without the expense of producing them as an official HuCard title.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">@BT – music aside, could the game code fit into a HuCard-sized ROM that would work in a
setup like this? I don’t know how you’d make money on that yet but I’m just curious if it is technically possible?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Matt (aka Landis)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com" target="_blank">xxxxxx@gmail.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@gmail.com" target="_blank">xxxxxx@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>bt garner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 07, 2014 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:xxxxxx@link.st" target="_blank">xxxxxx@link.st</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: [Turbo-List] Hypernova Blast Shipped</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Well, I think it boils down to simple economics. Look at the 2 most recent PCE releases. Atlantean was recently released on a custom built HuCard format, price is $60. HNB on SCD sells
for half that. Now think about hardware, how many TG-16s and Duos are out there that are still functioning (and hooked up)? Those are the only machines that can play a HuCard game. Whereas an SCD can be played in any emulator or Duo (yeah, I know, no TG-16s
for that). Then you have the piracy issue. If you released a PCE game on a format that could easily be uploaded, it will be uploaded (I have no doubt that HNB will be uploaded at some point too).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am not saying it can't happen, but it just seems very unlikely that anyone would invest the time needed for a PCE release, then do what they can to not be able to recover the costs
(and by costs I mean the costs of the product, that is not including the development costs).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#888888">-bt</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Steve <<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@craftsathome.net" target="_blank">xxxxxx@craftsathome.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I understand the ease and utility of using CD as a distribution medium, and also the flexibility in background music that a CD affords to a game. However, in these days of micro/mini SD cards, would it be "worth it" to distribute games on some kind of pseudo-Hucards
with an SD card baked in? I would love to play new games on my Express as well as my Duo.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<br>
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Sent from my Intellivision keyboard component.<br>
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> On Sep 7, 2014, at 3:14 PM, bt garner <<a href="mailto:xxxxxx@mindrec.com" target="_blank">xxxxxx@mindrec.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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> Yo guys - the first batch of HNB CDs<br>
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